It is not right of anybody to come out against ethnic groups just because the administration tried to look away from you. It is the administration - the people in administration, and not the ethnic group that needs to be chased. There were lot of Newars supporting Maoist during the 12 years old struggle, those people need to be dragged out in amidst and asked to protest against the decision made by their administration.

I believe there would be a wide spread support from all walks of life and from all ethnic backgrounds to preserve Newari Culture-the prominent culture in Kathmandu valley,  but please do not bring out the racial and ethnic issues. There would be no difference between the madhesi demand for Madhesh Land and Newar’s demand for Cultural rights if the ethnic and racial issues are at stake. And the ultimate winners would be the ones trying to destabilize, disintegrate and ultimately wipe out the existence of Nepal.

So let us be united and think wise. Let us bring the country back to the track and prove that Nepalese are not just a heard of sheep. Let us show that we can rise to the occasion. And let us say “I support Newar’s Fight for Cultural Rights in Kathmandu.”

Live Wire,"More Nepalese tax money goes here and has been the case since the conception of budgeting in Nepal."

KTM also pays the biggest chunk of taxes for Nepal. Cause in remote area the do not have the policing like they do who come knocking at the doors if you don't pay the taxes.

Livewire,"Unlike KTM,  NYC is much more independent. They are affluent and pay more taxes and tarrifs, get less from Federal Government, yet keep on thiving. And that is the point i am trying to make."

The welfare syatem of NYC is still sunsidised by the federal govt. disaster management is stil subsidised by federal govt. homland security is still subsidised by federal govt. unemployment is still subsidised by federal govt. they do get back what they put in taxes.

Livewire,"I don't think NYC would ask for whole lot of Federal $$$ to fund their "Little Italy" Fiesta or other significant day that part of the NYers celebrate for historic and cultural reason."

ha ha ha Little Italy festivals are all Cahtolic Church related and are tax free. They have the Italian community who fund these through the Tax free bracket and the $$ also comes from Faith based charities from the Federal govt.

Live wire when you say you want to hand it down to local govt. you are basically saying YOU DO NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH IT. OR that You are above it... and are basically Passing the BUck to the local govts. Afirmative action blah blah blah is all good in writing but problem is the shit is about to hit the fan. he he

oie muji jyapu haru ....kati karai rakheko??pustakari banauna ja muji haru

Yo saba kura uthe ko bhairahe ko kura lai bigarna khojer...

"Ti maobadi haru ko buddi chaina ki kya ho"

or is it a planned "sajish"--english world nai aayen ...

i don't see people based on theri ethincity. i don't know who is what..i know they are nepali and that identity is enough for me to differentiate between right or wrong...

Maobadi le je gare ek dum galat gare...tini haru le kahile k po thik garya chana ra......sajha ma j bhai raacha yo pani ek dum galat bhai raacha...come on u guys,,,yo racism band gara........don't point out any particular ethincity group...

Yo saba kura uthe ko bhairahe ko kura lai bigarna khojer...

"Ti maobadi haru ko buddi chaina ki kya ho"

or is it a planned "sajish"--english world nai aayen ...

i don't see people based on theri ethincity. i don't know who is what..i know they are nepali and that identity is enough for me to differentiate between right or wrong...

Maobadi le je gare ek dum galat gare...tini haru le kahile k po thik garya chana ra......sajha ma j bhai raacha yo pani ek dum galat bhai raacha...come on u guys,,,yo racism band gara........don't point out to any particular ethincity group...

La la jas jas lai je je garnu cha gari hala hai. Ahile yo kura tat tato cha. Alik din ma sabai birsincha. So act now.

raches sajis = conspiracy

bichara newar haru

dui thopa aansu khasai deu yaar

 

Tapai ko due dhopa ashu ko lagi muri muri dhanyabad.. Kunai din mauka paryo bhane tapaiko nam ma pani hamro tarfa bata due thopa ashu jharna aune nai chau....hami chai bichara bhanne saabda proyog na garula (yes lai tapaile jasari linu bhaya ni hunccha ..)

What a pathetic nickname this guy has.. he calls himself "suicide" what a fu ging frustrated guy is this?

 

f others, we can say "Go and die".. but for this, we don't even have to say that... this guy is already DEAD. ch.chchchchc..

Eradicating Indrajatra: Attack on Newars and Hinduism

http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&threadid=64492

Kudos to Pat for coming out with ideas that look forward in a poblem solving manner, unlike BC, who "just wants the guthis to get their land back." Pat, your ideas on Guthis getting credit back from the public institutions as well as calling for investigation of alleged enchoachment of land by private parties must be lauded. I know many guthis are wearing out and are financially weak. I don't think they receive the same amount of endowment that they used to receive historically from private individuals or the government.

I am not so sure about privatizing guthis though. But there can be little doubt that the guthis need organizational restructuring. One of the things I have noticed is that in temples, a lot of visitors give dakshina. I was wondering if there could be a better way of collecting dakshinas and donation that would directly go to the guthis. I definitely know god doesn't come and collect the coins and the notes. I wonder where all that money ends up in!!! Maybe, it would be a better idea to seek help from INGO to restructure guthis organization and train guthi members for better management skills that are needed in this day and age. However, if guthis want to be truely independent, I agree with you Pat. They must invest their assets.  

BC so u are saying The Feast of San Gennaro is entirely paid by the Federal government. Grow up. Check the facts, Sonny. Whist the federal goverment may give tax break to Catholic Churches to hold processions, it doesn't write a check for NYC or Little Italy. If you want to know how much the community is involved, go check their website.  http://www.sangennaro.org/.

I am saying the exact thing regarding our festivals. The central government should contribute. But it must also encourage the local community to contribute hence lessening the strain on the government. Remember Nepalese government is poor. Every year we face increasing trade and budget deficits. So every plan that  lessens government's involvement and hands it to other responsible institutions should be encouraged in my opinion. That is why I like Pat's idea.

Letting local governemts or decide for local issues in not passing the buck BC. Yes, you could call it empowerment through decentralization (which has been happening in US for ages), though.

"The welfare syatem of NYC is still sunsidised by the federal govt. disaster management is stil subsidised by federal govt. homland security is still subsidised by federal govt. unemployment is still subsidised by federal govt. they do get back what they put in taxes."

Ditto for KTM, BC. Infact in KTM, most public funding u see from electricity to telephone to trolley bus, pension for elderly, all kinds of security, the road that leads to my and ur house (if u are from here), repair of damaged public infrastructure..i mean every thing is paid by our central government. U know what Kathmandu-basis too do get what they put in. Not to mention, they also benefit from it.  Disaster Management is a federal issue (FEMA), Homeland Security is a federal issue (DHS), and unemployment benefits all are federal issues. All of these are headed by federal institutions. Whether u live in NYC or Topeka, KS, these departments are always funded by federal government. So, I don't know what u are trying to get across here. Once again, US and Nepal have different governing style. We have more centralized approach and heavily dependent on the central government. However, US has a federated system and the states are less dependent. Infact there are cases where a state wants federal government to stay away. IE why, every state has its own parliament, it own budget,its own laws, its own tax at many states, and importantly its own vision. BC, come man, this is elementary stuff.

So, if I want the central govenment to be less involved in the way people celebrate their festivals, I don't know why u are objecting it. The central government does provide security and partial funding. What more do u want. Do u want it to decide on details too? I want the details to be worked out more and more elaborately while we go down the level of governance, while letting information flow both ways.

One more thing, it if can, BC attack the gist of my arguement (less involvement from the central. dispersement of fund by using 'affirmitive action' amongst guthis and organizers, more involvement from the community to organize the festivals) with logic and reasoning and examples if u can. Nitpicking, dismissive language with no explanation, making half baked weak claims like NYC's Little Italy' s festival like Feast of San Gerrano is federally funded to stregthen ur arguement just shows ur desperation or child like approach to this whole issue.

Again, letting communities decide for themselves is not "i don't want to deal with it" attitude. It is another way of saying, "Hey buddy. I appreciate your festival and here is a check for you. Make sure u use it to fund the festival. We will be watching of financial irregularities. But its your money. You know the festival better than me. So I trust you to make the right calls. Your municipality/VDC will be working closely with you regarding this matter. You can approach them and Ministry of Culture if for matters regarding the jatra. Let the fun begin. Oh  yeah, one last thing, we will take care of the security. I will be working directly with the municipality to provide u with adequate security. Suva ____ jatra" 

BC, don't forget I want the jatras too, not just only Indra Jatra but also other festivities that celebrate culture and life in Nepal.

On a side note, BC, I live in Hadigaun, and i am sure you have heard what they say about Hadigaun and Jatras right?

Livewire,

I think Maoist Government opened a can of worms. Guthis own very valuable assets worth billions of rupees but they are ill managed by Guthi Sansthan (a Government entity). The control of these assets should be given back to the original Guthis that owned them if possible.

For Guthi lands that were used for many public institutions such as TU, Singha Darbar with tens of billions of rupees of valuation, Government should create some kind of annuity fund for upkeep. I doubt Guthis got anything in return and all Nepalis irrespective of their ethinicity benefit from them. It is not fair that Guthi land were forcefully taken and they have to fend for themselves on their own.

Some Guthi lands are not developed or are given on leases by Government. These should be returned to private Guthis (i.e. temples or community they originally belonged to). The Government need not fund these temples and their rituals any longer after returning their propreties.

I think this should be fair but I doubt Government will do it since it means giving up control real estate and land with valuation of tens of billions of rupees.

Livewire,

Did I say that feast of SanGenarro is funded by Federal Govt ? You must have pulled that one out of your ass. But it is funded by that Tax sheltered bractket called religious institutions which belong to the Catholic Church. Which conduct their own business, own their own properties(federal Govt did not engulf their properties and land). Whereas Nepali government did take over Guthi and the temple's properties and land which left them out in the dry. When I mentioned federal govt.'s support for religious charites I Meant Bush's recent proposal of funding faith based organizations only. DADDDIOOO !!! http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.com/news/article.cfm?id=701

I have no problem if federal govt. get involve or not, once they give the land back to the people they took it from. Then the community can self sustain themselves. But untill then the federal govt should be involve just like they used to be.

Unless this current problem is solved then YES IT IS PASSING THE BUCK. And if they run into trouble and if the govt doesn't do something to save them YES IT IS PASSING THE BUCK.

I am not objecting to less federal govt.'s involvement in local day to day operations, but rather talking about the current issue of NO LAND NO MONEY situation.

Your argumnt of afirmative actin kind of policy will not work because WHO WILL DECIDE WHO GET WHAT SHARE ? ITS NO LIKE HERE WHERE IT IS ACROSS THE BOARD. THERE ARE COMMUNITIES WHO CONTRIBUTE MORE TO FED GOVT. AND PAY MORE TAXES. THEY SHOULD GET MORE BACK FROM THE FED GOVT. THAT IS MY POINT, and ther you go talking about San Gennaro again PULLING ONE OUT OF YOUR ASS AND USING IT LIKE A MANTRA.

" It is another way of saying, "Hey buddy. I appreciate your festival and here is a check for you. Make sure u use it to fund the festival. We will be watching of financial irregularities. But its your money. You know the festival better than me. So I trust you to make the right calls. Your municipality/VDC will be working closely with you regarding this matter. You can approach them and Ministry of Culture if for matters regarding the jatra. Let the fun begin. Oh  yeah, one last thing, we will take care of the security. I will be working directly with the municipality to provide u with adequate security. Suva ____ jatra" 

But they ar not doing that right now are they ? ha ha ha THAT WAS MY POINT.

Pats, I couldn't agree more when u say that "Guthis own very valuable assets worth billions of rupees but they are ill managed." Yesterday I was watching this new TV channel that was airing an episode alluding to corruption in Pasupati Trust. According to the program, the trust has a bank balance in excess of Rs. 17 crores. It also revealed a problem that you have brought , ie, government/private properties built on Pasupati Development Trust's land, but not paying any rent or compensation.

I agree that land/property that is idle must be handed back to guthis. No doubt there. As far as other properties already in use, I don't see them being given back. Plus, no fair minded person, unlike BC, would say give back Singha Durbar ( i did not know, it once belonged to a guthi. do u know which one, though?). There is just too much at stake besides real estate value. We need alternatives. So your idea of just compensation is probably overdue.

I am more worried about guthis that are crumbling and aren't as rich as some of the others. When I see temples and our cultural heritage decaying with no signs of restoration, I am saddened. Even the prominent temples like Baglamukhi and even Pasupati to cetain extant need restoration works. I mean there is garbage everywhere. The other day I went to Karya Binayak. The place was a mess with left over food everwhere. The oil lamps had so much resin leftover that it seemed to me the lamps weren't cleaned since they were first erected. And guess where they stood? Right under the bell; so all the bells were smothered with black fumes. Sometimes I wonder where people go to temples to prey or to carry sickness (unintended)back home. Shouldn't the temple authority do more about cleaning the place, removing the garbage, controling the street dogs? But whose going to tell them? Will they listen? Whose going to pay for it? That is why I also ask for guthis to revamp and get re-energized. The guthis probably lack of funds or proper managment or both.

Did the Maoists open a can of worms? I don't know for sure. I think it was bad policy and politics. But judging by the number of protests that we see here in KTM, whatever one does that pisses off a bunch of people could be viewed as opening a pandora's box. For now, I believe the problem is solved as they have reversed their decision.

It should be interesting in the future. I heard they have cut funding for sacarifices that are to take place in Dasai. Can't confirm this. But if true, do u expect to see a similar uproar from the public?

BC, don't play around with words. Let me review.

When I said ,"I don't think NYC would ask for whole lot of Federal $$$ to fund their "Little Italy" Fiesta or other significant day that part of the NYers celebrate for historic and cultural reason."
Read it again pal. Make sure u read it again and pay attention to the phrase "whole lot of Federal $$$"

Your reply was, "ha ha ha Little Italy festivals are all Cahtolic Church related and are tax free. They have the Italian community who fund these through the Tax free bracket and the $$ also comes from Faith based charities from the Federal govt. "

My reply to u point was, "BC so u are saying The Feast of San Gennaro is entirely paid by the Federal government. Grow up. Check the facts, Sonny. Whist the federal goverment may give tax break to Catholic Churches to hold processions, it doesn't write a check for NYC or Little Italy. If you want to know how much the community is involved, go check their website.  http://www.sangennaro.org/. "

Your response was, "Did I say that feast of SanGenarro is funded by Federal Govt ? You must have pulled that one out of your ass. But it is funded by that Tax sheltered bractket called religious institutions which belong to the Catholic Church. Which conduct their own business, own their own properties(federal Govt did not engulf their properties and land). Whereas Nepali government did take over Guthi and the temple's properties and land which left them out in the dry. When I mentioned federal govt.'s support for religious charites I Meant Bush's recent proposal of funding faith based organizations only. DADDDIOOO !!! http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.com/news/article.cfm?id=701."

By the way, "that Tax shelter braket called religious institution" does NOT belong to the catholic church. I don't know where u got that peiece of (mis)information.  Further more, what u have done is proven my point, ie, the feast is not a federally funded event; that the feast has some federal assistance but not interference because the feast is a NYC event (although not really but u know the whole Italian immigrants and Napoli connection). Infact it has a distinct NYC flair with the Mayor often embarking on a PR campaign encouraging the public to attend the event and assuring peace and security. Once again to see how the wider public is encouraged to participate and contribute to their feast. U can check out what other parties pay for the festivities.

BC don't attack my staw man. It's clear U can't handle the gist because rather than trying to solve the problem or atleast present a set of solutions no matter how basic they may be, you are trying to play the devil's advocate and argue.

Regarding who decides who gets how much, it should be decided by the municipality/VDCs and representatives of guthis and other social organizations that hold these cultural events under the supervision (moderation) of Ministry of Culture. I think i have already given a rough blue-print.  Look I am not pretending that I have a silver bullet here. But my model does look to solve problems (present and future) and build consensus. For past disputes, may be the best way is to go ahead is as suggested by Pat, to create a commiittee to look into irregularities on the side of the government and public. The institutions that are in Guthi properties should pay "rent" for x number of years. Or just go to the court.

BC, "I have no problem if federal govt. get involve or not, once they give the land back to the people they took it from. Then the community can self sustain themselves. But untill then the federal govt should be involve just like they used to be."
BC u have a narrow mind. For u can only fathom two possible solutions. 1. Give the land back (it won't happen).

2. Go back to the old system or regress.(which is not sustainable). Seems u don't like changes or u are not willing to try other other solutions where are much more comprehensive and plain better.

For IndraJatra, the community should seek govt. help. But it should also pull up its own socks. Besides reforming guthi system as was proposed by Pat, I have already written how the museums and other businesses that thrive from the very culture that are present in Basantapur-Durbar square area can contribute to the funding of the festival. Not to forget, more intensive fund raising activites. I have already written about it earlier.

Moving on to tax issue that u talk about- Let me tell you, the main reason of tax collection by the central/federal government is  for income redistribution. In blunt words, collect from rich and divide it amongst the poor. Yes the rich get some of it too, but not as much.  If taxes were collected only to spent where they were collected from, any local authority could have been in charge of doing so. Why would any society need a "Centre Based Authority" to collect tax? Taxation is a socialist issue, capitalists despise tax. Taxes are meant for the "greater good;" for society as a whole. So it is not unfair for Kathmandu bais's tax going to let's say Gulmi or Jumla, or Ramechap. It's actuall good. But talking about it would be digressing from the main agenda here, so i won't go there.

BC comments, "But they ar not doing that right now are they ? ha ha ha THAT WAS MY POINT."

Well  the government was not doing that. It was not decentralizing its efforts to fund/organize jatras. It was not running community friendly PR campaign. Instead it was getting heavily involved, funding, going in detail....hence the mess on the streets. I don't know if the govt will change in coming days, may be not. But for sure, those were not ur talking points, smartass. Remember what u were saying at the beging while responding to nepe's comments? That local involvement and local decision making capabilities would bring another civil war...  u were also calling the same points "passing the buck."  dude either u are not reading my comments properly or u are playing plain dumb.

Livewire i only see solutions :-

1. Give the land back (it won't happen)

2. Go back to the old system or regress.(which is not sustainable).

to which you dismissed as not possible and unlikely to happen. From the looks of it you sound like someone who is here in disguise. In other words land pani liyera paisaa pani nadiyera yeso gar uso gar ani tyo khayeko land chahii paaach ? THIS IS NOT PROBLEM SOLVING THIS IS HOODWINKING THE NEWARI COMMUNITY.

Newari culture will be preserved at all cost by the Newars.  Any political leaders trying to destroy newari culture will be like" lifting a rock" as the communist saying goes "to drop onto its own feet and must bound to come to grief".  They are playing with fire.  This is exactly what is happening in Kathmandu.

BC, we are not moving ahead in our discussions. I see we are making circles. May be you don't read my threads or just don't care about the topic, hence, u are coming up with ur hackneyed conclusion "In other words land pani liyera paisaa pani nadiyera yeso gar uso gar ani tyo khayeko land chahii paaach ? THIS IS NOT PROBLEM SOLVING THIS IS HOODWINKING THE NEWARI COMMUNITY. "

To conclude my inputs to the thread I reiterate the positives my suggestions (some of which do resemble nepe's and pat's ideas) :

1. Empower communities by giving more rights to decide for themselves. They decide how to spend the fund. Calls for less oversight and inervening from the government.

2. Gives community more financial flexibility because they decide how to and where to spend the money, as opposed to the government telling them.

3. Better scope of PR propoganda for the government. A good way to propogate "decentralization" of power and authority.  

4. More interaction between the government and the community,hence, bettering the communication and avoiding miscommunication that lead towards coflict. (For details read by previous posting how different levels of authority interact with the community).

5. Raises the community's interest with distinct festivals and fares. By orgaizing melas and special functions to raise money and awarness, they can generate a lot of buzz and publicity to attract wider spectacle. Wider participation will be encouraged.

6. More financial independence as the organizers look to undertake a sizable fund raising campaign. The businesses as well as Government institution who benefit from the cultural surroundings will be asked/encouraged to contribute their share. For example in the mela that they organize, they can invite businesses to set up stalls. In return they can get a "donation" or charge a "fee" for the stall. The government too can channel some VAT or tax levied upon the local business to a fund set up to finance festivals and jatras (This applies mostly to affluent neighborhoods. Poorer communities will have to rely more on government help.).

7. Calls for investigation on illegal Guthi encroachment.

8. Looks to revamp Guthis structurally to make them more independent and  professional. Financial independce and sustainability cannot happen without this point.   

9. Continuous compensation or "rent" paid to the guthis if their land generates any income (as in hospitals or museums).

It is a pro-active and comprehensive plan (for funding issues, guthi issue, and culture/tradition) looking to solve problems in the long run.